For years, many Christians have been told that people deconstruct because they want to sin, abandon faith, or escape accountability. But what if that’s not the story at all?

In this conversation, deconstruction advocate Margaret Bronson argues that deconstruction is often born not from disbelief, but from trauma. Together, we explore why so many people begin questioning their faith after experiences of abuse, spiritual harm, or betrayal by the church—and what pastors need to understand if they hope to care for them well.

Margaret offers a powerful reframing of deconstruction, describing it as a process of examining what we’ve been taught, separating God’s voice from human traditions, and asking whether the faith we’ve inherited is actually the faith of Jesus. Along the way, she makes a provocative claim: Jesus himself was a great deconstructor.

Whether you’re a pastor trying to shepherd people through faith crises, someone walking through deconstruction yourself, or simply curious about one of the most talked-about movements in the church today, this conversation offers insight, challenge, and a call to deeper compassion.

As pastors and church leaders navigate a culture increasingly skeptical of Liberal democracy, terms like classical Liberalism, post-Liberalism, and Christian nationalism are showing up in sermons, podcasts, and social media feeds. But what do these ideas actually mean?

In this episode, Caleb sits down with political scientists Paul D. Miller and Daniel Bennett to unpack the origins of classical Liberalism, the principles that shaped the American experiment, and the growing movement calling Christians to move beyond it. Together they explore questions of limited government, natural law, religious freedom, political power, and whether Christians should be wary of efforts to create a “Christian state.”

The conversation also offers practical guidance for pastors seeking to disciple congregations shaped by political media, helping them think biblically about power, citizenship, persuasion, and faithful political engagement in a deeply divided culture.

Whether you’re hearing terms like post-Liberalism for the first time or trying to understand the debates reshaping evangelical politics, this episode provides a thoughtful introduction to one of the most important conversations facing the church today.

In this episode, Caleb sits down with Amy E. Black and Cherie Harder for a thoughtful conversation about religious liberty, the First Amendment, and the role Christians should play in a diverse democracy.

Together, they unpack common misconceptions about pluralism, explain why it is not the same as relativism, and explore how a pluralistic society protects both religious freedom and the church from government control. They also discuss the challenges of living in a society where people hold competing convictions, the dangers of Christian nationalism, and why persuasion is fundamentally different from coercion.

For pastors navigating an increasingly polarized political climate, Amy and Cherie offer practical wisdom on cultivating healthy political engagement in their congregations—one marked by humility, curiosity, and the fruit of the Spirit rather than fear, anger, or partisan combat.

Check out Chris Martin’s Mending Division Academy course, “When Social Media Divides Us: Confronting Our Internet Habits,” at MendingDivisionAcademy.com.

Caleb Campbell and Bonnie Kristian explore the landscape of journalism, discussing the distinction between news and opinion, the ideological perspectives of various media outlets, and the historical context of news consumption. They delve into the shift towards digital media and its implications for how people consume news today. Bonnie offers insights for pastors on encouraging healthy media consumption habits and provides resources for finding quality news.

Resources

Mending Division Academy

Bonnie Kristian Substack Newsletter

Chapters

00:00 Understanding Journalism: News vs. Opinion

02:42 The Role of Media Outlets: Perspectives and Bias

05:28 The Evolution of News Consumption: From Print to Digital

07:53 The Impact of Social Media on News Consumption

10:45 Navigating Information Overload: Healthy Media Consumption

13:28 Encouraging Healthy Media Habits in Congregations

Caleb Campbell and Daniel Bennett explore the complexities of misinformation and disinformation, the blurred lines between news and entertainment, and the challenges of navigating trust in media. They discuss the importance of healthy communication, especially in the context of faith and relationships, and offer insights on how to engage in constructive conversations about divisive topics. The discussion emphasizes the need for pastors and individuals to foster understanding and build trust in a divided world.

Links

Go to MendingDivisionAcademy.com to learn more about Daniel Bennett’s course, “When Conspiracies Divide Us: Confronting Misinformation.”

Takeaways

• Misinformation is incorrect information, while disinformation is intentionally misleading.

• The media landscape has blurred the lines between news and entertainment.

• Trust in news sources requires a balanced media diet.

• Healthy conversations are essential for understanding differing perspectives.

• Faith can intersect with conspiratorial thinking in complex ways.

• Pastors face challenges in addressing divisive issues within their congregations.

• Building rapport and trust is crucial in conversations about sensitive topics.

• Understanding the motivations behind beliefs can foster better communication.

• All truth is ultimately God’s truth, guiding our understanding of the world.

• Engaging with love and curiosity can mend relationships affected by misinformation.

Chapters

00:00 Understanding Polarized Perspectives in News Consumption

01:50 Misinformation vs. Disinformation: Key Differences

05:50 The Blurred Lines Between News and Entertainment

10:53 Navigating Trustworthy News Sources

13:18 The Impact of Media on Personal Relationships

17:36 Engaging with Conspiratorial Thinking

21:44 The Role of Faith in Truth and Misinformation

25:43 Pastoral Guidance in a Divided Culture

28:10 Educational Resources for Mending Divisions

David Koyzis, Citizenship Without Illusions: A Christian Guide to Political Engagement

Paul Miller, The Religion of American Greatness: What’s Wrong With Christian Nationalism

Michael Austin, American Christian Nationalism: Neither American Nor Christian

Caleb Campbell, Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor

AVC Bookshop: https://bookshop.org/shop/AmericanValues

J29 Coalition: https://www.j29coalition.com/

J29 Newsletter/Podcast: https://blog.j29coalition.com/

J29 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@J29Coalition

Disarming Leviathan: https://www.disarmingleviathan.com/

American Values Coalition: https://americanvalues.org/

AVC Newsletter: https://news.americanvalues.org/

Additional Book Recommendations

Lisa Sharon Harper, Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World--and How to Repair It All

Deitrich Bonhoeffer, Life Together: The Classic Exploration of Christian in Community

David A. Ritchie, Why Do the Nations Rage? The Demonic Origin of Nationalism

Caleb Campbell and Austin Gravley explore the concept of the perception gap, particularly in the context of social media and its impact on how individuals and groups perceive one another. They discuss the importance of humility in navigating these perceptions, the role of media literacy in discipleship, and practical steps that ministry leaders can take to address these issues within their congregations. The conversation emphasizes the need for deeper understanding and engagement with others, as well as the importance of setting boundaries around media consumption.

Links

Go to MendingDivisionAcademy.com to learn about Austin Gravley’s small group course on the perception gap.

Takeaways

• The perception gap refers to the difference between how we perceive others and their actual beliefs and feelings.

• Social media often provides only surface-level information, leading to misconceptions.

• Humility is essential for engaging in meaningful conversations and understanding others.

• Discipleship should include teaching media literacy to help individuals navigate information responsibly.

• Setting boundaries around media consumption can improve mental and spiritual health.

• Pastors should focus on local issues rather than solely national discourse.

• The perception gap is a dynamic cultural force that cannot be fully closed but can be addressed.

• Good faith conversations require time and effort to understand differing perspectives.

• Media literacy is as important as other discipleship topics like marriage and finances.

• Recognizing our limitations can foster humility and better communication.

Chapters

00:00 Understanding the Perception Gap

07:28 The Impact of Social Media on Perception

15:30 The Role of Pastors in Addressing Perception

21:28 Cultivating Media Literacy in Congregations

30:42 Practical Steps for Ministry Leaders

Dr. Carmen Joy Imes is a respected biblical scholar, author, and public theologian whose work bridges academic insight with pastoral application. She serves as Associate Professor of Old Testament at Biola University and is the author of Bearing God’s Name, Being God’s Image, and Being God’s Family. Through her teaching, writing, and popular YouTube series Torah Tuesday, Dr. Imes invites Christians to see Scripture with fresh eyes and to live as participants in God’s redemptive family.

Across the country, more and more Christians are talking about Christian Nationalism. The term shows up in sermons, podcasts, and political debates—but it’s often confusing. What exactly does it mean? Why does it matter for followers of Jesus? And why are so many saying it’s dangerous for the church in America?

Join us for a timely webinar:
“An Evangelical’s Guide to American Christian Nationalism.”
November 4, 2025 - 2:00 PM EST

Together, we’ll hear from leading voices in political science, history, theology, and philosophy to help us discern what Christian Nationalism is—and how the church can respond with wisdom, courage, and love.

Register for the webinar

Featuring:

Dr. David Koyzis – Political scientist and author of Political Visions and Illusions, helping Christians see how modern ideologies shape our political imagination.

Dr. Paul D. Miller – Professor of the Practice and Co-Chair for Global Politics and Security and Senior Fellow, Scowcroft Center for Strategy and Security, Atlantic Council at Georgetown University and author of The Religion of American Greatness, offering historical and theological insight on Christian Nationalism’s rise in American life.

Dr. Mike Austin – Professor of Philosophy at Eastern Kentucky University and author of American Christian Nationalism: An Introduction, exploring the ethical and spiritual implications of this movement.

Rev. Caleb Campbell – Lead Pastor of Desert Springs Bible Church and author of Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor, providing a pastoral vision for engaging this issue with empathy and conviction.

This event is sponsored by: J29 Coalition • Disarming Leviathan • American Values Coalition

In October, 2023, I was one of a group of concerned Christians gathered around a table in Denver who formed the J29 Coalition. So I was surprised to see Meghan Basham’s claim in First Things that my colleagues and I actually founded a front for the Democratic party. I was also surprised to read that we are trying to nefariously inject progressive politics into the evangelical church. Why was I surprised? It is because both claims are false. In actuality, the J29 Coalition wants to help the political imagination of the Church we love be shaped by God and his kingdom, not partisan politics.

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As a registered independent who has voted for Democrats and Republicans over the years, I’m not interested in propping up either party. Neither is J29. I don’t know the party affiliation of the other founders of J29, nor do I care. We don’t know the party affiliations of the pastors and ministry leaders we serve, nor do we care.

Is J29 actually a leftist organization? If not, Basham wonders why only left-wing foundations support it. First, there are donors not mentioned by Basham who are not left-wing. Of those she does mention, Todd Stiefel of the Stiefel Freethought Foundation is neither a Democrat nor a progressive. And while the Hewlett Foundation has supported pro-choice organizations, it has also supported The Heritage Foundation and the American Enterprise Institute. These are clearly not left-wing organizations. Neither is J29.

We agree with Basham that our theological beliefs have implications for political issues. We just deny that those implications always land on the right. Or the left. Or in the center.

For example, if being conservative on immigration means what it appears to mean to many today, then that poses serious questions for followers of Jesus. Christians should start with the belief that every single human being is made in God’s image. There are a variety of possible implications of that theological truth. One is that we should protect people within our borders from violent criminals who want to enter our nation and do us harm. Another implication is that people who are here legally, US citizens, or veterans shouldn’t be indiscriminately taken into custody or detained by ICE. Good people who have come here to escape poverty, violence, political or religious persecution, or are seeking a better life for their children should be treated with dignity and respect, regardless of what ultimately happens with their immigration status. And no one should be sent to a prison where they will be tortured, or incarcerated in conditions that are inhumane.

None of this means we should have open borders. Nor does it preclude limits on who and how many people we allow into the US. It does mean we should have substantive, civil, and productive discussion and debate about the ethics of immigration and the role of the church. One can oppose the current immigration policies of our federal government, policies that are also advocated by many within MAGA, without being “woke” or trying to “inject progressive politics into the church.” The work of the J29 Coalition is not about wokeness or progressive politics. It is about allowing Christ and his kingdom to shape our views on political issues and how we engage one another in political discourse. Faithful followers of Jesus will disagree on issues. When that happens, we should disagree in ways that honor Christ.

Basham is skeptical that J29 wants to combat extremism and foster better political discourse in the church because no leader or coach “voted for the candidate the majority of Christians supported in the last election.” At least one coach voted for Trump in the past. But part of the reason that few if any voted for Trump in 2024 has to do with the extremism he at times supports and the unhealthy political discourse he exemplifies and encourages, as these are things J29 opposes.

Not voting for Trump doesn’t mean one is a liberal. Plenty of conservative Christians didn’t vote for Trump, for reasons that had to do with their faith. I’ve been Nevertrump from the start. I also voted for George W. Bush twice and Romney once. As far as I know, nobody around the table in Denver in 2023 voted for Trump. This was due to deep concerns about his character and the ways in which some of his actions and policies undermine democracy and vital American institutions. These concerns should matter to all, regardless of party or where one falls on the political spectrum.

Basham also claims that J29’s coaches are part of “a host of political and theological liberals” brought in to influence pastors and their people. But many of the examples she gives don’t add up. There are plenty of political and theological conservatives involved in J29. I was a coach for the 2024 pastor cohort, and I’m an elder at a PCA church in Kentucky. It doesn’t get much more theologically conservative than that.

I won’t go into detail about every person Basham includes in her “host of political and theological liberals.” But it will be helpful to look at a few.

Carmen Imes teaches at Biola University, where professors must agree to a doctrinal statement including belief in the inerrancy of the Bible, that human life and personhood begin at conception, and that marriage is a covenant between one man and one woman. It’s simply false to claim that Imes is a theological liberal.

Basham characterizes Elizabeth Neumann as a political liberal because of her views about immigration. But she fails to mention that Neumann served in the George W. Bush administration, focusing on issues related to national security and counterterrorism. She also served in the first Trump administration as Assistant Secretary for Counterterrorism and Threat Prevention at DHS. She is neither a political nor theological liberal.

Finally, Basham brands Pastor Caleb Campbell as a liberal because he “admitted that up to 80 percent of his congregation left due to his progressive politicking on immigration and race.” He admitted nothing of the sort. These former members left because he challenged Christian nationalist views about immigration, race, and politics more generally. That’s not progressive politicking. Rather, it’s trying to cultivate a political imagination within the church that is formed by the kingdom of God, rather than nationalistic misappropriations of the Bible.

Some of the people who are involved with J29 in some capacity would not identify as political or theological conservatives. But that’s a good thing. We should be willing to work with people with differing views in the political and theological realms. People involved with the J29 Coalition are willing to work alongside people they disagree with because they share common ground related to civil discourse, strengthening democracy, and more importantly helping the church bear witness to Christ in the political realm.

We can learn from one another in the midst of disagreements. More than that, we can actually disagree and be friends! If we want to help foster civil discourse among people who have political disagreements, what better way than to bring together people who have political disagreements and engage in civil discourse? This is part of what the J29 Coalition does.

The J29 Coalition is not trying to convince pastors or their congregations to become less conservative. Our goal is to equip pastors who want to disciple their congregations in kingdom-shaped politics. Our hope is that those congregations develop a political imagination that is not captive to partisanism on the right or the left, but rather captivated by the kingdom of God.

We share the goal of doing “the hard and holy work of forming believers according to the Word of God” that Basham’s article extols. That’s at the heart of what the J29 Coalition is doing. We want to help people—left, right, or center—to see politics through the perspective of God’s kingdom, not a partisan lens.

As the Bible tells us, God’s kingdom is a kingdom of righteousness, peace, faith, hope, love, humility, compassion, gentleness, and wisdom. God’s kingdom transcends our partisan divides. The J29 Coalition’s reason for existing, and our prayer, is that Christ’s church would do the same.

Michael Dineo Thomas Jr. is the founding and lead pastor of Radiant Covenant Church in Renton, Washington, where he has served since planting the church in 2013. Originally from Chicago, Michael leads a multiethnic, multigenerational congregation committed to Christ-centered reconciliation and biblical justice. Under his leadership, Radiant has grown into a vibrant faith community through expository preaching, contextual discipleship, and public witness—including city-wide events like the “March to Surrender” and annual faith and race conferences. Pastor Michael is a leader within the Evangelical Covenant Church and regularly trains and mentors pastors navigating multiethnic ministry in politically divided contexts.

Scott Venable is the Lead Pastor of Northwood Church in Keller, Texas, a multiethnic, non-denominational church known for its commitment to biblical teaching and community engagement. Formerly a church planter in Chicago, Scott returned to Texas to succeed founding pastor Bob Roberts Jr. at Northwood. Under his leadership, the church emphasizes “kingdom DNA” through initiatives like a 10-week discipleship program, refugee and immigrant ministries, ESL programs, and local partnerships. He also coaches church planters nationwide through a residency and training pipeline rooted in kingdom theology.

Pastor Derrick Puckett is the founding pastor of Renewal Church of Chicago, a gospel-centered, multiethnic congregation committed to discipleship, justice, and the flourishing of its city. He also serves as the Executive Director of The Chicago Partnership, equipping church planters and pastors for urban ministry. With a strong commitment to racial reconciliation and pastoral formation, Derrick is a frequent conference speaker and contributor to conversations on church planting, multiethnic ministry, and kingdom justice.

Pastor Mike Erre is the lead pastor of Journey Church in Southern California and host of the VOX Podcast, where he explores culture, theology, and the Church’s public witness. A former teaching pastor at large evangelical churches, Mike now shepherds a community committed to deconstruction, reconstruction, and Jesus-centered discipleship. He is known for his honest, theological approach to tough issues—calling believers to trade fear and outrage for wonder, humility, and kingdom imagination.

Learn more about the J29 Coalition at j29coalition.com.

Mark Glanville is a pastor, Old Testament scholar, accomplished jazz pianist, and author whose work bridges theology, culture, and the life of the local church. He currently serves as Associate Professor of Pastoral Theology at Regent College in Vancouver, where he teaches preaching, biblical studies, and mission. His books include Improvising Church: Scripture as the Source of Harmony, Rhythm, and Soul and Preaching in a New Key, which invites pastors to reimagine expository preaching for today’s post-Christian world. Drawing on both Scripture and jazz, Mark offers a compelling vision of preaching that is faithful to tradition yet dynamically responsive to the cultural moment.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to American Politics and Religion

06:37 Understanding Habeas Corpus

13:01 The Importance of Due Process

20:41 Biblical Perspectives on Governance

25:42 Navigating Political Engagement as Christians

28:19 The Role of Love in Politics

30:33 Government as a Form of Neighborly Love

35:32 The Dichotomy of Political Involvement

40:15 Local vs. National Politics: A Balanced Approach

45:32 The Church's Role in Political Education